Curse

vader · Feb 17, 2010, 02:35 PM // 14:35

I've been wondering how exactly the UW changes improved the game. Weren't the changes implemented to supposedly stop speed clears? The UW can currently be completed in 25 minutes in speed clear groups. So, in order to stop speed clears skeletons were added (fail) and then Dhumm was added along with his 700+ ecto mini?

I know it was new content but I really think it was a huge fail and just gives people even more incentive to run speed clears all day.

Polgara Val · Feb 17, 2010, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Doesent Dhuum take at least 10-15 min on average to kill alone? Not to mention the quests etc.

I havent played uw in a couple of months but I have never seen a screenshot of someone finishing uw in under 30 min with the current difficulty, not saying it isint possible just curious to see if you can prove this or link up a screenshot after finishing off dhuum.

Pol

vader · Feb 17, 2010, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

Doesent Dhuum take at least 10-15 min on average to kill alone? Not to mention the quests etc.

I havent played uw in a couple of months but I have never seen a screenshot of someone finishing uw in under 30 min with the current difficulty, not saying it isint possible just curious to see if you can prove this or link up a screenshot after finishing off dhuum.

Pol

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/o...ght=speedclear

They have 2 different ones listed:

Current (Not Nerfed):
UW 8man: 23min

Nerfed:
UW 8man: 7min

Both are under 25 minutes.

Gill Halendt · Feb 17, 2010, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader

I know it was new content but I really think it was a huge fail and just gives people even more incentive to run speed clears all day.

Indeed, expecially since regular groups have a much harder time than before, while speed clears were barely affected.

That's the A-Net way to solve problems: taking the longest, utterly complicated route, proposing overly convoluted solutions, and failing at addressing issues anyway.

Polgara Val · Feb 17, 2010, 03:03 PM // 15:03

I stand corrected.

However I am glad the new skill update is coming up this will make things much more intresting, 23 min for an elite area with a possibility of massive rewards at the end is to put it lightly very sad state of affairs for Anet. I hope after the update uw will be far more challenging then it is now. Dont want this thread to turn into SF but the only reason thats possible is because of SF hands down.

However when the skill update occurs then the changes in UW will be a little more challenging now then running around practically invincible for 30 min

Practically all those screenshots have SF involved, I for one am looking forward to the SF nerf no more speed clears at least nowhere near to that level and far more challenging will keep this game alive a bit more until GW2 is released.

Pol

ValaOfTheFens · Feb 17, 2010, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

However I am glad the new skill update is coming up this will make things much more intresting, 23 min for an elite area with a possibility of massive rewards at the end is to put it lightly very sad state of affairs for Anet.

I wish ANet would do something about Tomb. It takes 45 min to 90 mins, depending on the skill of your party, and the rewards are just plain awful. Tomb isn't exactly elite but its rewards doesn't match the difficulty. The place is on par with Frostmaw's Burrow when it comes to annoyance and the potential to wipe. But unlike Frostmaw there aren't any rez shrines so if everyone dies its game over.

Carboplatin · Feb 17, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

The chance of becoming an instant millionaire made UW more attractive then before. I wouldn't even do UW if it wasn't for the new things dhumm added.

So i guess it did add alittle to the game for some of us, without getting into the whole SF thing again, I am really looking forward this this update, hopefully on thursday.

doing HM UW without SF with a balanced team is probably the most fun i've had in a while

Gill Halendt · Feb 17, 2010, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carboplatin

hopefully on thursday

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

This link should be put on the Official Wiki under the Game Updates: February 2010 page.

Day Trooper · Feb 17, 2010, 03:29 PM // 15:29

I'm not sure I ever heard ANet say the UW changes were to 'improve' the game per se or 'stop' speed clears, but moreover that they just wanted to slow down the UW speed clears.

To that end they have achieved their goal. As the OP stated, the pre-Dhuum record was 7 minutes and post-dhuum it's 23 minutes.

Being a part of the 23 minute record run, I can tell you that our groups failed often before we got that time. Now on average, our times are in the 30-35 minute range.

Also, when (if??) Shadow Form is nerfed, then without question the UW times will slow down even further.

Specifically on the 'improve' aspect of the OP's post though, for myself and the others who created DayWay, the changes were refreshing as we now had a new set of challenges to come up with the fastest builds/strategies to defeat. So this definitely 'improved' our GW gameplay experience.

On another note, the mini-Dhuum is still a very rare drop. I've seen the post-Dhuum chest close to 200 times now and still haven't gotten one. And I know other folks with more runs than that who haven't seen one, either...

-DT

Essence Snow · Feb 17, 2010, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I am unfortunately going to have to agree that the changes hurt the non-sc groups more than the sc one's. UW is definately more attractive to sc than get a balanced group for in terms of time. Pre-nerf sc:present sc 7:23=16min difference...vs...balanced pre:present (roughly) 45:1hr 40=55min increase. These numbers aren't accurate...just thrown out there for point's sake.

Karate Jesus · Feb 17, 2010, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day Trooper

I'm not sure I ever heard ANet say the UW changes were to 'improve' the game per se or 'stop' speed clears, but moreover that they just wanted to slow down the UW speed clears.

Well, they definitely slowed down SC's, but they also killed balanced groups, so......Good Job?

Until Shadow Form is dead, SC's will be all people do in UW. And even after, I'm sure people will just improve upon the old tank and spank methods to get runs back down to 20ish minutes.

Polgara Val · Feb 17, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Well, they definitely slowed down SC's, but they also killed balanced groups, so......Good Job?

Until Shadow Form is dead, SC's will be all people do in UW. And even after, I'm sure people will just improve upon the old tank and spank methods to get runs back down to 20ish minutes.

I agree with that, I doubt though Anet will make the same mistake with SF with another skill. The only other skill that can come close to some aspects of SF is Obsidian Flesh and even then its far slower, like you said its a tank and spank method which is nowhere near the level of SF.

I would say though that people use SF now just enjoy it while it lasts because when this skill update happens I doubt well see a time below 30 min in uw for a long time, depending on the skill update of course.

Pol

Gill Halendt · Feb 17, 2010, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

I agree with that, I doubt though Anet will make the same mistake with SF with another skill. The only other skill that can come close to some aspects of SF is Obsidian Flesh and even then its far slower, like you said its a tank and spank method which is nowhere near the level of SF.

Well, they said they were going to buff Tactics. There resides Gladiator's Defense...

Karate Jesus · Feb 17, 2010, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Well, they said they were going to buff Tactics. There resides Gladiator's Defense...

Surely they know better than to buff Gladiator's.....right?

Ugh, I wish the update would just get here already. Too much speculation :/

Killed u man · Feb 17, 2010, 04:43 PM // 16:43

How did they kill balanced? Balanced doesn't work in PvE because balanced doesn't rely on broken damage mechanics. When thinking about balanced, Warriors, Eles (Nukers), Monks and such come to mind. But it definatly doesn't work because it's "nerfed", it simply doesn't pump damage.

It's not so much that they can't survive in these elite areas, because they can, Dwayna bless the protection line, it's just that it can't steamroll, and that's the bottom line.

People don't seem to realize the biggest part of the problem isn't the skills, but rather the generally established mentality in PvE that "everything needs to go fast". (Which is also why current PvE'ers skipped the intire learning process)

After they nerf SF, what's going to happen? People are probably going to run XX other form of tank, with pretty much the same damage midline. Tanking as a whole is just a small part of the problem, the fact that you can kill intire mobs of balled up monsters in under 5 seconds is the other.

In a way, as long as AoE skills such as SS, RoJ, ... and to a lesser extend the non-armor ignoring ones (SF) exist, farming will never be dead.

And sure, UW times will get longer and longer with each update, but I doubt they'll ever nerf the essence of the problem, which is the redicilous amounts of damage some skills can pump to balled up monsters.

Will the SF, and probably also Earth Tank and maybe 600 bonder, nerf be good for the game? Definatly, but it'll only be a matter of time before ppl realize you can just aswell use some form of other tank, which they will.

But hey, atleast when UW times get pushed back to about 2-3 hours for a full run, then we can start talking about a "balanced PvE". And before you go: "Why would anyone want to spend 2-3 hours in XX area?" Well, because in time, the rewards will go up, and up... *If noone farms UW no more, after XX months, the supply of ectos will run completely dry, and they will go up massively*

MisterB · Feb 17, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

*If noone farms UW no more, after XX months, the supply of ectos will run completely dry, and they will go up massively*

You can still solo farm UW for ecto, i.e. ignore quests and kill monsters; the update of Dhuum didn't change that. It actually increased the chances of getting ecto thanks to the skeletons.

Karate Jesus · Feb 17, 2010, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

It's not so much that they can't survive in these elite areas, because they can, Dwayna bless the protection line, it's just that it can't steamroll, and that's the bottom line.

Honestly, I can barely ever understand anything that you write, because.....well, I can't read whatever strange style of English you use. However, if I read that correctly, then you're suggesting that people don't play balanced simply because it's slow? Not exactly true....

The problem is that the power creep over the years has made playing balanced and beating an elite area damn near impossible. Without PvE skills, invincible tanks aggroing, etc. it's just hard. And not the fun or challenging kind of hard, just plain, old-fashioned, annoyingly hard.

The AI in GW may be stupid, but it's also ridiculously overpowered. Ungodly amounts of enemy health and energy, environmental effects, ridiculous attribute specs on monsters, etc. have caused players to adapt.

And it's not just UW.....

Xsiriss · Feb 17, 2010, 04:59 PM // 16:59

'Balanced' ways generally mean some gimmicky nuking stuff and gimmicky support (D/N orders etc.) that end up dealing the damage. Other than that it sucks,only player balanced teams can do much in hardmode and even then rape is usually imminent.

Reformed · Feb 17, 2010, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

The problem is that the power creep over the years has made playing balanced and beating an elite area damn near impossible. Without PvE skills, invincible tanks aggroing, etc. it's just hard. And not the fun or challenging kind of hard, just plain, old-fashioned, annoyingly hard.

And it's not just UW.....

I was going to write a decent sized reply to OP and then I read this. KJ is absolutely right and here's your problem in plain English. Anet encourages this style of play by number pumping and creating problems through skill buffs/power creep and then breaks out the sledgehammer when it gets "too fast".

coil · Feb 17, 2010, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader

I've been wondering how exactly the UW changes improved the game.

new content is good (unless at other contents' expense)

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader

Weren't the changes implemented to supposedly stop speed clears?

it did. no more 7-10 min pugs. the new "speed clear" group (of which there are maybe 3-4 groups of 8 people in game that can reliably get <26 mins) is 3-4 times as long as the "speed clear" was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader

So, in order to stop speed clears skeletons were added (fail) and then Dhumm was added along with his 700+ ecto mini?

and the quests were altered (spawn points, pop ups, etc). a new drop will always be expensive at first until it starts flooding the market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader

I know it was new content but I really think it was a huge fail and just gives people even more incentive to run speed clears all day.

-not wasting 1-3 hrs on a possible fail is incentive enough in any area to run "speed clears". but it is still possible with a "balanced"/non "speed clear" group. you just have to take a different strategy and be willing to spend a bit more time.

-you're wrongly assuming that any pug or even any guild group or any friends group can get <30 min runs. and that's not always the case.

-it's like all pve...it's static. you find the winning build through trial and error and you win. just because dhuum has a simple counter doesnt mean it failed, in my opinion.

crying about how people choose to play the game, if thats what this post is about, is silly.